June 26, 2015

Governor Herbert on Education:"We don't have money to waste, and we need to kind of come together on what the next 10 years will be, and not have to reinvent the wheel each time we have a legislative session"

Announcer: KUED presents “The Governor's Monthly News Conference,” an exchange between Utah reporters and Governor Gary Herbert. This program was recorded earlier.

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  Good morning.

ALL: Good morning.

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  It's great to be with you, as always. And particularly, it's great—I'm grateful to be with you because I just got back, as some of you know, from a trade mission to Europe. It's always good to be home. I think it was extremely successful and let me tell you why I think it's important.

A statistic that many of us don't know, but I've learned, is that 87% of foreign direct investment into our state comes from Europe. They are a major trading partner with us. Eighty percent of us have our ancestral roots in Europe, so we have an affinity with the Europeans, and our ancestral roots, and I think an affinity that helps us.

 We've had opportunity on this trade mission—I was there just a little over a week—to meet with a lot of people involved in tourism and travel. Our tourism and travel in Utah is growing now at nearly 8% per year. It's a phenomenal rate of growth and the majority of the visitors to our national parks—we call them the Mighty Five is our tourism promotion right now—are international, non-English speakers that come to Utah to visit our national parks and enjoy the beauty and the hospitality of Utah.

We also have had opportunities not only to meet with government officials and CEOs of many companies, but particularly in our aerospace industry, another area where we've had great success. We have 21,000 jobs in Utah that are directly in part of our aerospace sector of economic growth. By the way, that does not include the thousands of jobs that are out at Hill Air Force Base. That's over and above the 21,000 we have in what we would call just the private sector. Six thousand of those jobs are in composite material making and, as I was at the Paris Air Show meeting with General Electric, meeting with Boeing, meeting with Lockheed Martin, it was with some pride as I watched some of the demonstrations of the planes, the Aerospa—Airbus, rather, 380 and 350 that have significant composite materials made here in Utah. The Boeing Dreamliner, the 787, significant material. About 53% of the material on a Boeing and on a Airbus are made here in Utah. So with these planes flying off into everywhere around the world, a little bit of Utah's going with them.

We've had opportunity to meet with site planners, people involved in business in Europe. They're looking for opportunities, obviously, to invest in Utah, and these site planners now know about Utah and the significant success we're having economically, and now it's on their radar screen as they look for businesses they're trying to relocate into America to take a look at Utah as a place where they have opportunity.

We have grown our international business over the last 5 years better than any state in America. That means jobs at home, expanding the economy. It's mutually beneficial to those countries that we visit. And again, it's the opportunity for us to, in fact, continue to expand our economy, recognize that 95% of the customers for our businesses here in Utah lie outside the borders of America. I bumped into a lot of governors on my trip over there. The competition's keen, people are learning what we already know, and that is international business pays significant dividends to the taxpayers and the people of our respective state of Utah.

So very successful trade mission, very important that we continue to do that as we expand our economy in Utah. And the results are that we have a 3.4% unemployment rate today, in large part because of our international business which is also taking off. With that, I didn't bring you back any souvenirs. I didn't have enough room in my suitcase but, as a consolation prize, I'll take your questions. How's that?

LISA RILEY ROCHE, DESERET NEWS: Sounds good, Governor. How about talking about prison relocation? Yesterday, I learned that not only is there a request that legislative staff take a look at the economic development impact numbers attributed to the Draper site, removing the prison there. I think $1.8 billion is the number that the consultant gave the state. One lawmaker says that's too—way too high and needs to be re-examined. And now another lawmaker, the co-chairman of the Prison Relocation Commission, says, “Oh, no, that may be way too low. We need take another look at it,” last minute, as they're wrapping up their work and getting ready to make a recommendation. Has enough been done to look at the real value of moving the prison from the Draper site or is it time to take a closer look at that?

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  Well, the motivation behind moving the prison ought not to be just the economic development aspects of freeing up that land. That maybe is a secondary issue. It's certainly important. But the primary reason is we need a new prison. And so the question is going to be why do we need a new prison? Well, because the one we have currently is obsolete. It doesn't function as well. We're not able to do the rehabilitation work that's necessary in today's understanding of the social challenges of rehabilitation of those who are incarcerated. So the rehabilitation, the improvement of recidivism is—really should be the driving force and to build a new prison in a location that's conducive for a prison.

I've always said, you know, if Draper is the best place, let's keep there. If it's not, if there's a better location than Draper, then let's move it. That's my position, first, last, and always. The economic benefit, I think, is just more gravy on the potential of moving the prison. And it's—you can speculate on the highs and the lows. There's probably a range in there. And we won't know, you know, until we actually do it to see how much benefit. I expect it could be a significant upside over the next generation as that land is developed, particularly depending on what happens on it. If you have other high-tech industries—we just talked about aerospace, the significant benefit it is to our society here of 21,000 jobs. I mean, if we had more technology there in Silicon Slopes, who knows what the economic benefit would be over the next 20 or 30 years?

BEN WINSLOW, FOX-13: But does the prison need to move, then?

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  You know, that's part of the analysis that the Legislature should be making. The question is, if we were going to start today and say, “Let's put a prison.” Say we didn't have one and we're going to put a prison, where would be the best site to locate it? Is it Draper? Is it some place in Utah County? Is it out in Tooele? Is it here in Salt Lake Valley? Where would be the best place to locate it? That's part of the question. We already have one at Draper so that's impacts the equation and the discussion. We have some additional ground but the question is going to be can we build a new prison while the existing prison's there in its location? Is there enough room to, in fact, improve it or we're going to have to have a Band-Aid remodeling impact on existing buildings to accommodate the existing or the new buildings would be built? That's part of the analysis. What we don't want to have is a new prison that's really a Band-Aid approach at the end of the day as opposed to—if we're going to build a new prison, let's build a new prison. That gives us the best bang for the taxpayer's dollars that will serve us for the next 50 to 100 years. And that's part of the discussion. I expect that the process will lead us to the right conclusion and I'll look forward to the Legislature giving me their recommendation.

BEN WINSLOW, FOX-13: But do you think the prison should move or should it stay in Draper? It sounds like you're considering all options but what do you think?

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  Well, I'm not involved in all that detailed analysis so that's the responsibility of the Legislature and this Prison Relocation taskforce. Getting public input and listening to what they have to say, they'll make that decision on whether it should or shouldn't. There's pros and cons, I expect. It's not just black and white. But it should be done, if there's a better location, which means we can build a better prison. We need to build—we're going to have to spend $350 million to $400 million wherever we do it. So the only question is where. What is the site? And we need to have a prison that functions correctly. And I think that's part of the discussion and, if we cannot do it on site and get to the end result we want to have, then it ought to be in a new site, a better site. And I'm looking to the Legislature to give me that recommendation.

LISA RILEY ROCHE: Do you think the Legislature, though, has studied building the prison on site—rebuilding a new prison on site adequately? A lot of people say they've never really taken a serious look at that. They looked at the economic value of moving the prison, made a decision based on that. And now we're looking at building on other sites.

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  Well, if they haven't, they should. And I expect that they have had some discussion. I've talked with the chairman of the Prison Relocation. At least in conversation with me, it seemed like they have considered that. And they have some logistical challenges of building on site with the existing buildings in—present. They're occupied. They've going to be utilized. So you've going to find a place adjacent, where there's enough room to build a new prison, while the existing prison continues to function. I mean, there's some challenges logistically to do that on site. But it certainly ought to be considered. And so I expect that it is and has been and will be. But that doesn't mean that's what the recommendation's going to be. I'm going to wait and see what the Legislature does. That's their responsibility.

ROD DECKER, KUTV-2: Representative Mike Noel says the state should pay legal fees for an appeal by Commissioner Philip Lyman who drove up the BLM Road and was convicted of trespassing and other things. Do you support the state's paying his legal fees?

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  You know, I understand the frustration and probably most people here, 'cause you follow this issue for, you know, what, 20 years? The public land debate, wilderness, RS 2477, closing of roads. The reason some people advocate the roads ought to be not noticed because if you have a road there it can't be declared wilderness. I mean, there's a lot of different perspectives on this and I understand the frustration in rural Utah and particularly in San Juan County of waiting for over 8 years for the BLM to make a decision on whether they should open or close that road in Recapture Canyon. That's a long time to make what was ostensibly an easier decision to make than it would take 8 years

That being said, you know, I think that there needs to be a connection, if we're going to use taxpayers' dollars, to a state purpose. Clearly, the idea of analysis of whether the Feds have the right to close that road or not and whether that should be defended and—by the state of Utah is certainly a connection that has a state purpose. I would expect the Legislature that it does have a process in place to go through this analysis to make a decision. I would expect them to get recommendation from the Attorney General's Office, from their own in-house legal counsel, and to follow the process or give us the right conclusion based on the law.

BOB BERNICK, UTAHPOLICY.COM: But you, the Lieutenant Governor, is one of the chairs of that Commission, is he not?

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  He is. I was that when I was Lieutenant Governor too and—as was Greg Bell. You sit on that Commission and he's my designated representative. He'll listen—

BOB BERNICK, UTAHPOLICY.COM: So what are you going to tell him? Are you going to tell him that—

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  He'll listen to the facts of the case. He'll share those with me as they have their upcoming meetings. I think they meet in a little over a week. And I expect that they will follow—all of them, follow the recommendations of good legal counsel. There should be a connection and a state purpose for what they're doing, and I expect that they will come up with the right decision based on the law.

BRADY MCCOMBS, ASSOCIATE PRESS: Senator Baucus made the argument that the Legislature shouldn't get involved in the judicial system, that the jury already weighed in on this, that they should stay out of it. Your thoughts on that?

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  Well, I—again, if there's a state purpose, then the state has a right to weigh in on it. Again, we've been involved, the state in collaboration with the counties, for 20 years. Have a shared responsibility on roads, RS 2477, we share them in ownership. And so we've been involved in legal proceedings, court fights. We've won some, we've lost some. As we try to, you know, go through this maze of what roads are RS 2477 and should be maintained and kept open and what are not. And we have different perspectives on this issue. We can't—we've tried—in fact, we are still trying to resolve this by a negotiated settlement with all the interests, all the stakeholders. Some don't want to resolve the issue. So they want to go to court. Some are trying to delay it because they want the evidence to die off, where people can say, “We've used this road for the last 40 or 50 years. It took us to the south 40 of our pastureland or it took us to this mine or this operation. It's been used by the people of Utah historically.” And I can understand the tactics of delay so that we can't bring that testimony to court. It's time to resolve those issues once and for all and we're trying to negotiate that with, in fact, the BLM. And we have some test cases in Iron County right now and we're trying to resolve that in an amicable way.

BOB BERNICK, UTAHPOLICY.COM: This seems to be a different situation. I mean, before you were suing the federal government of opening the road or not opening the road or something else. This is a man who's been convicted in federal court and now you're going to pay for his appeals?

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  I'm not saying we should pay for his appeal. I'm saying we should follow the law. And again, I think there needs to be an access, meaning there's a state purpose. And clearly, the closing of our roads and access to our public lands has a significant state purpose. And to that extent, there is probably a need for the state to be involved. And again, I think that the recommendations that ought to be sought are from the Attorney General's Office, and from other legal counsel that the Legislature has, that gives them direction on how we go through this process and do it appropriately.

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: If the state does pay for his legal fees, though, is that an endorsement of civil disobedience and—

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  I'm not saying they should pay his legal fees.

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: I understand, but if that is the conclusion-

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  I'm saying that they need to make sure there's a connection and, again, the reports I—I get mixed reports, but the reports are to do a legal analysis of the closing of that road. That's going to cost some money. They said maybe $100,000. And whether that information is shared or helps Commissioner Lyman is yet to be determined. I'm just suggesting that there needs to be a state purpose if our involvement is there. We need to follow good legal counsel and advice so that we do this according to the law and see where that leads us. And I'm not prepared to draw any conclusions at all. It's all speculation at this point in time, as far as, I think, what the end result will be.

MICHAEL ORTON, UTAHPOLITICALCAPITOL.COM: Except that you cited, Governor, that there's a historical precedent here in the RS 2477 angle on the issue. The federal aspect is that there is historical evidence from an archeological standpoint. So aren't those in some kind of conflict?

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  Well, again, we, in fact, try to work in collaboration with the BLM under multiple use, which is what their charter calls for, and that includes protecting archeological artifacts and certainly sensitive environmental areas. Again, the argument that's part of the current process is was there, in fact, any disturbance at all? My understanding is the evidence shows that Commissioner Lyman just went to the right of way at the end and turned around and came back. I can't see him causing much destruction or disturbance if that's, in fact, the truth of the matter.

So, again, I think there's a lot of emotion involved in this on all sides of the issue. I'm trying to take a very objective approach and say, hey, we have a process in place that allows the state to weigh in on areas of concern that have a state interest. There is probably a connection to what Commissioner Lyman has done, and his frustration that's bubbled up and over the top. I recognize that. I'm empathetic to that case. But we need to make sure we follow the laws of state in how we disburse our monies.

ROD DECKER, KUTV-2: Superintendent Smith of the Public—Superintendent of the Public Instruction Smith says he will have by September a plan for Utah education. He'll announce the plan, implement it, and ask the Legislature to fund the plan. You have, and have had for some time a Commission on Educational Excellence. They were going to come up with a plan. Is your plan—is there a conflict between your plan and Superintendent Smith's plan? Will you be on board with Superintendent Smith's plan?

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  You know, I think they're just two different pathways trying to get to the same end goal. And that's to have a plan in place. I'm trying to develop a 10-year plan so we don't start over every year at the Legislature with a lot of different contrary and opposing pieces of legislation. I think Superintendent Smith recognizes that same problem. Let's come together, we're going to put together our 10-year plan, he's going to have his own plan, we'll compare them. I expect that they will be very similar. If we have to merge them, bring them together. But we need to have something will bring us together to where we can all focus as a state on here's where we're at today, here's where we want to be in 10 years, and here's the steps necessary to get there. I expect that we'll have very similar, if not the same, plan.

ROD DECKER, KUTV-2: The UEA and—is concerned that Superintendent Smith will do his own plan separate from the Commission, and that teachers won't be, in their view, properly represented. Would you comment on their concern?

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  Well, I understand people's apprehension. Change is always difficult to do and the worry of the unknown, what's going to be presented. We don't know and Superintendent Smith has not released a plan yet so we'll have to wait and see. But I expect that all the stakeholders will be involved in developing a plan. And I'd identify the stakeholders as the citizens of Utah, parents, students, all those involved out there, the taxpayers themselves. Certainly, the education establishment, those who are involved in the actual, you know, front line work of teaching and providing our educational system, our legislators, our state school boards, and our local school boards, and probably a lot of others, the principals, and super—I mean, it's going to take everybody coming together on here is, in fact, the 10-year plan that we agreed to and, again, here are the steps, in fact, to implement and accomplish the plan. I think it will help us. We don't have money to waste, and we need to kind of come together on what the next 10 years will be and not have to reinvent the wheel each time we have a legislative session.

ROBERT GERHKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: Tell me what you know right now about the Justin Miller case. Do you think he should step down?

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  You know, I don't know much about Representative Miller's situation. Whether he should step down or not's between him and his constituents who have elected him and, I guess, to some extent, the Democrat Party which he belongs to, and so that decision should be made by them and you would have to ask them that question and get a better answer than from me.

ROD DECKER, KUTV-2: You haven't yet come up with a plan, another plan, for Medicaid Expansion or a substitute for it in Utah. Are you waiting on King v. Burwell? If King v. Burwell goes against the Administration, then they're going to have to talk to the Republicans. Are you hoping for a better situation for Utah to come out of that process?

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  Well, there is some uncertainty because of King v. Burwell. I expect that will be resolved; in the next few days, I think the Supreme Court will, in fact, let us know what their decision is. If it stays the same way, if King does not prevail, then the status quo is what we have now which we're already working on.

If, in fact, King prevails, then I believe, and having had some conversation with Congressional leadership, that they will come up with some kind of a fallback position. What do we do? I don't think they'll want to have a sharp cliff drop-off, and I do believe they'll come back and probably propose to the states you can either have your own exchange and continue on with the current law under the Affordable Care Act. Or, what I would prefer, is that they will say to the states, we're going to block grant the money back to you and you can develop your own plan, which sounds a lot like the approach we were trying to take here in Utah anyway.

And so if King prevails, which I hope it does, then I think that will allow other states to have a block grant approach, more flexibility, and take that taxpayers' dollars which are being sent to Washington, send them back to the respective states, and let them develop their own plan, which I believe will actually be better. I believe our Healthy Utah approach and what we will come up with here, working with the Legislative leadership, is better than Medicaid Expansion.

MICHAEL ORTON, UTAHPOLITICALCAPITOL.COM: Senator and Dr. Barrasso from Wyoming has been charged with developing the Congressional approach to this in case the SCOTUS decision goes in the opposite direction. But “The New York Times” reported today that he's not quite sure exactly how to approach this, which could be a liability for the GOP going into an election year. Since you're very active in the GOP, what are your thoughts on that matter?

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  Well, it's always tough to speculate, you know? You always get yourself in probably a difficult situation if you try to answer questions that are based on speculation. So I don't want to do that. We're going to know in just a few days what's going to happen. I know that regardless of either way, if King prevails I think we'll continue on a very similar path and find a block grant, more flexibility to the states, which I applaud. I've always said, one, don't take the money from us in the first place. If you do, give it back to us, and let us find our own way to spend it more effectively, more efficiently, based on our own unique circumstances. I think that's a good principle. And if King prevails I think that's what we'll fall to, I think, with GOP leadership in Congress. If it stays the status quo, then I still think that we need to work out something to get maximum flexibility that we can get out of Washington, D.C., to get a better program than Medicaid Expansion.

REPORTER: Would you consider expanding Avenue H to individuals?

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  You know, I would consider anything that will get us to a better result. Again, you need to respect the taxpayers who are footing the bill, make sure we get the maximum benefit from their hard-earned tax dollars that they're sending and paying as a mandate. I mean, it's not like they're voluntarily giving up their money. They have to spend the money and send it away. Takes it out of their own disposable income in their households or their businesses. And we need to respect and understand that there are people out there who are the most vulnerable amongst us that need some help. The private sector has a role to play when it comes to charitable giving, but the government has a role to play, as Ronald Reagan taught us, in what he called the safety net issues. And this is a safety net issue problem.

BEN WINSLOW, FOX-13: Governor, another major issue that is being deliberated by the Supreme Court is same sex marriage. Have you begun considering options, what you're going to do regardless of how the court rules?

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  No. Again, I've always argued and believe that it is really a state issue. I believe that when the Defense of Marriage Act was overturned and the Supreme Court said, “Look, the Federal Government cannot dictate to the states how to define marriage,” I took that at face value and I still believe that today that states should have the right to define marriage. I believe the process is better for us to get to the right end result when the people speak through their Legislative leaders. I'd rather have the respective state Legislatures say, “This is the definition of marriage in our state,” as opposed to having a court make the decision. It leaves people unsatisfied. Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Supreme Court Justice, said on the abortion issue that it would have been better if this had been settled legislatively as opposed to the nine members in black robes of the Supreme Court. I agree with her assessment. But whatever it is, we'll address it. We'll find a way. We're doing some really good things, I think, here in Utah when it comes to anti-discrimination and, in many ways, I think we are a role model for the rest of the states of how to get things done and, you know, respect people's rights.

ROD DECKER, KUTV-2: If the states end up with more power to restrict gay marriage, would you favor more restrictive laws in Utah?

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  Well, again, that's a speculation as far as what's going to happen in the future and I haven't had a chance to really think about the results. Let's wait and see what the Supreme Court says. We're going to know shortly here. Before the next 2 or 3 weeks we'll know and then we can say, “Okay, here's what it is. Now what do we do with it?” And make some decisions in that regard so I—

BOB BERNICK, UTAHPOLICY.COM: You're running for re-election next year and historically the Governor's had a pretty big say in who the state republican party chairman is in his re-election year. James Evans, the current chair—you know all the problems that have come up over this. And has—

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  What problems?

BOB BERNICK, UTAHPOLICY.COM: [laughing] He says that he's going to run again. Do you support Evans as another term?

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  You know, I think he's done a good job. I—it's a difficult thing to be the Chairman of the Republican Party and particularly all the different issues swilling around right now. So I'm not going to say anything negative about James. He's been a long-time friend and I think he's done a great job for the Republican Party. He's served in many different capacities. There might be others out there that want to challenge. That's kind of the nature of elections. And again, there might be friends of mine that would want to try a challenge and have the option to serve in that capacity. So we'll wait and see what happens. I'm not endorsing anybody at the present time, or I'm not opposed to anybody at the present time. I think we're on the right track to resolve the issues with the Senate Bill 54 and the parties, I think, moving forward so I'm very optimistic about the future of the party.

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: But are you, or anybody associated with you, trying to recruit somebody else to run against him, talking to some of those friends you have to try to get them to—

GOVERNOR HERBERT:  I don't know of anybody. There might be somebody else, but I'm not out recruiting anybody. I'm certainly willing to listen. People have contacted me about should I run or should I not? And have asked questions in that regard, but I'm not out recruiting anybody.

ERIK NEILSEN, KUED: Governor, we are out of time. Thank you very much for joining us today. “The Governor's Monthly News Conference” is livestreamed on kued.org. It is pre-taped on Thursdays and broadcast on Sunday, so if you'd like to watch the livestream, please join us at kued.org for dates of streaming. Thank you very much for joining us. Have a good evening.

ANNOUNCER: This has been “The Governor's Monthly News Conference.” An archive of transcripts, video, and audio is available online. Please visit kued.org. Thanks for joining us.

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