March 25, 2010

"We were faced with a billion dollars less in revenue in our peak, with a $700 million gap, education facing a $400 million cut. And when it was all said and done we ended up getting a little nick with $10 million..." -Governor Herbert

KEN VERDOIA, KUED: Governor, thanks for joining us today. This is the first time we've been able to meet in this setting since the conclusion of the state legislative session. With a few more days of consideration on your part, I wonder if you've kind of broken down this session into the good and the not so good. In one respect, what would you put at the top of the list of mission accomplished, and in another respect, what would you say unaddressed or not as well addressed as you might like?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, I haven't had really a chance to reflect on it too much, because I've been so busy kind of reviewing the bills. We still have 80 plus of them that I've got to review and sign, veto, or let go into law without signature. But I can tell you that as we came into the session, and what is probably viewed as the most difficult legislative session we've had, particularly when it comes to the budget, you know, I think we accomplished a lot in that we were able to, one, hold the line on funding for education. We were faced with a billion dollars less in revenue in our peak, with a $700 million gap, education facing a $400 million cut. And when it was all said and done we ended up getting a little nick with $10 million, in areas that are probably not as essentials to the classroom, like library books, most schools would have been able to purchase three or four new library books this year, now they won't be able to because of the $10 million in cut. But I feel very good about that. We've been able to hold the funding on public education.

We've been able to hold the funding pretty well on higher education, too. And I was happy to see that education really came out afterwards and paid high tribute to our office and the legislature on working with them on education. So the stakeholders felt good about the session in that regard, and I feel good about it.

I guess secondarily, I feel good about the fact that we held the line on taxes. Again, people will recall that tax increases were certainly being considered at the beginning of the session, income tax increase, sales tax increase, gasoline tax increase, tax back on food. And although I ended up having to compromise and negotiate in order to protect education with a tobacco tax, we did a great job, I think, in putting ourselves in a position of economic recovery by not having to have any kind of a tax increase. So I think by any measure we had a real successful legislative session, and I appreciate the good work of the legislatures in making some tough decisions.

KEN VERDOIA, KUED: What about the second part of that question, mission not yet accomplished?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, I wish that we were able to, in fact, hold the line That $10 million, and I had a way to get us through that process without having to take even a nick out of funding for public education. So I felt bad about that. We also had a way to do it without a tobacco tax increase, and so I feel like I didn't get what I wanted there. But it's unusual for a Governor to get everything he wants anyway. So I should be happy with what we were able to accomplish. I think that by and large it's hard to be too critical, because I think everybody got along pretty well, Republicans and Democrats. I think we tackled difficult issues, I think we funded the budget appropriately and responsibly, protecting education and paved the way for economic growth and prosperity in our future. So it's hard to find anything that I don't feel pretty good about.

LISA RILEY ROCHE, DESERET NEWS: Any bills, Governor, that you are taking an extra close look at, any greased veto pens ready for anything?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, we're taking a look at all of them very closely. Some are easier than others and there's some that we're going to have to look at more in depth. And we're reviewing that with sponsors of the bill, and interest groups that have got concerns either for or against different bills. I've got until next Wednesday to make that decision ultimately. But every bill deserves consideration. I've taken it really seriously, we read all the bills, there's 482 of them, and try to analyze the policy that they're trying to put in place, any unintended consequences, Constitutionality, fiscal notes, those kinds of things, and so we're spending a lot of time reviewing the bills now.

LISA RILEY ROCHE, DESERET NEWS: What are you most concerned about as you reach that deadline? Which bills are you most concerned about?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, I think there's concerns about the stream access has got a lot of energy out there. Is that the right policy? I think it's a situation that causes all of us a little bit of pause. We've got along so well together, fishermen and farmers, over the years, most of the times. I know when I go fishing you ask the farmer, "Can I have permission to walk on your property and get access to the stream?" We've created a kind of situation where we are adversarial, that causes me concern. And I think there's a few that spoil it for the many. There are probably some issues there from a legal standpoint that need to be reviewed to see if we are doing it exactly right. At the same time, you've got to respect private property rights. I mean that's what's made America great, the idea of private property. So that's one I'm taking a look at and engaging people on all sides of the issue before I make up my mind.

ROD DECKER, KUTV: You have $3 million taken out of money that would otherwise go to school from state lands, and it is set aside in order to mount a lawsuit to have eminent domain by the state over federal lands. It isn't automatic, it goes to a commission that you head before it can be spent. Do you think it's a good idea for Utah to spend $3 million on legal fees instead of on school children?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, it depends on the success of the lawsuit. For example, we have state trust lands, as you know, school trust lands, rather, throughout the state that we have opportunities to develop and take the income from that development and put it into education. One of the challenges we have, we have some of those school trust lands that are not accessible across federal lands. We need to get a right of way, and so eminent domain, adverse possession would provide access into those trust lands which could generate millions and millions of dollars for us.

ROD DECKER, KUTV: There is a Supreme Court decision saying the state should have right of way, and I would guess if you went to them and said, "We want our right of way, and we may sue," they'd say, "We'll talk." That isn't what the legislature wanted. They wanted a great, big, $3 million lawsuit where you go to court and hammer at each other. Are you going to look to try to settle this with the forest service and the BLM, or are you going to court and start fighting?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, we'll always negotiate first. Sometimes, though, as you know the old story that when the donkey doesn't move sometimes you need to hit him across the head with a two by four just to get their attention. And sometimes the federal government needs to be brought to attention so we can negotiate and have some discussion. There is no reason that we need to spend $3 million on some of these issues. It's nice to know that it's there in case we need to too it. But there's other ways to skin the cat than as proposed. But it's nice to have that as one of the arrows in the quiver.

ROD DECKER, KUTV: If you get access to these two plots of land will you not sue?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: That's yet to be determined. As you already said, it's going to go to the Constitutional defense council, it'll be reviewed, vetted there, and we'll have input from people from probably different points of view and decide, is that the right strategy moving forward?

CHRIS VANOCUR, ABC-4: Governor, during the recent health care debate in Washington, protesters yelled some offensive remarks towards members of congress. And since the bill passed there have been death threats and broken windows at congressional offices. Governor, has a line been crossed here?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Absolutely. Absolutely. That's reprehensible conduct and should not be tolerated in any way, shape, or form. We are Americans, we have opportunities to have debate, discussion, dialogue, and we do it in a peaceful manner. And if we don't have the powers of persuasion to convince people of our point of view, then we accept the rule of the majority, we protect the rights of the minority. But that is very un-American, what I've seen and heard on those areas. I hope, and I trust that it's isolated incidences, but even one is one too many.

CHRIS VANOCUR, ABC-4: Some have suggested that perhaps Republicans have been partially to blame for inciting this kind of passion. How do you respond to that kind of talk?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, I don't know if it's Republicans. There are individuals, probably, that have taken it too far. The rhetoric is a little too heated. I think it's representative of frustration that's taking place. We saw that frustration born out here just a couple of days ago in our neighborhood caucuses. We've had record turnouts, sometimes double, triple the amount of people turning out to our neighborhood caucuses. They're saying, you know, we've got some excitement here, energy, we've got some concern, frustration, which turns to anger easily on what we see happening, particularly in Washington, D.C. So it's probably at least understandable, it is just not acceptable.

CHRIS VANOCUR, ABC-4: You've been in politics for a while, now. Have you seen anything like this before?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: No, I never have. I've- - I see energy, I, again, Rod and I are old enough to remember Vietnam, and what took place in that era, and that was a lot of people on the streets and energy and concern as the ebb and know of the Vietnam war. So at least that, probably, part of my life was similar. But this is kind of unique in this more modern, recent era. People concerned. The health care debate is really, I think, divided the country in a significant way that we haven't seen in recent time.

JEFF ROBINSON, KCPW: Governor, in your campaign for the 2010 special election you've been basing your platform on things like economic development, energy development, education. Absent from that list are social issues like abortion and traditional marriage and immigration. Are you purposefully trying to run to the middle, here, distance yourself from the tea party crowd, as you run this campaign?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I'm not purposely trying to do anything other than do what I think's in the best interests of the state of Utah. And my campaign reflects my governance. I think what you've just mentioned, economic development, jobs is the number one issue for Utahns. It's the number one issue, I think, for Americans. And that ought to be the forefront of anything we do. In fact, anything I look at, policy wise, is looked through the prism of, how does it impact the economy? I believe that's the number one issue, and for us to create opportunities for jobs and economic expansion. If we get that right everything else will take place, fall into place, we'll have revenues come in to take care of health and human services, transportation, those kind of things.

There are many issues, it's not just those three, that I've highlighted. There are other issues out there that we will address as they come up, and we're addressing them as needs be. But it's just, as you prioritize you need to focus, I think, right now on clearly economic growth and development. That means jobs, that means education for long term sustainable, for economic growth, and it means take advantage of what we have as a natural advantage energy. Utah's positioned to be a significant player when it comes to energy development. And my energy commission that we're putting together, working on a 10 year plan right now, I think will have significant residual benefit long term for the state of Utah. It's just too bad America doesn't have a 10 year energy plan. So again, all those revolve around growing the economy.

MAX ROTH, FOX-13: Governor, you mentioned how well everyone got along during the legislative session, there are two Democratic representatives who decided not to run, and in their announcements that they're not running this year, Kristin Johnson and Phil Riesen, in their announcements essentially saying it's just too frustrating to be a Democrat in this body. As the, kind of the top ranking Republican in a very Republican state, do we have a healthy mix of views in our government?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I believe so. Again, in the original foundation of our country, and our state, you know, political parties really have not been what was envisioned. It's kind of how we evolve. And there's divisions even inside parties. We can see that happening today, again, with what's happened the last two days with our caucuses, you can see divisions inside the Democrat and inside the Republican party, and different gradations of how conservative should you be? How liberal should you be? So we have plenty of healthy debate. Individuals are not just rubber stamps of parties, and we're not clones of each other. We have different ways of looking at things. So I think we have healthy discussion and debate. And I think we saw that in this legislative session.

I know it's sometimes difficult to be in the minority, and be in the minority party, but they have a significant role to play. They in many ways are kind of a counter balance, and are part of the process. And certainly in this legislative session the minority party had their presence felt and their voice heard. And so I think in Utah we're doing it right. And the end result of this, by the way, and the current mix is that Utah is recognized outside our borders as the best managed state in America by independent organizations who have got no ax to grind. We're recognized as a great place to do business, one of the top three in America, as the state that's best positioned to come out of the economic downturn. So whatever we're doing in Utah right now, we're doing it right. And other people are recognizing that. So let's continue to stay the course. I think our mix is good, it's healthy, the principles we espouse are the right principles that give us the right outcomes.

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: You mentioned some of the frustration that was expressed at the caucus, the big turnout. A lot of that was directed at Senator Bennett, questions of whether he's been a staunch enough conservative or a good Republican. Do you think there's reason to question his conservatism, or his commitment to the Republican party?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I don't think there's reason to question his conservativism or his Republicanism. I think it's a reflection of the frustration of Washington, D.C. as a whole. And you hear the phrase, you know, throw the incumbents out. And unfortunately probably for Senator Bennett he's a part of that as a long term incumbent. But I think by any measurement he's certainly right of center Republican, has not been, by any way, shape a liberal. Whether he's conservative enough for others, you know, remains to be seen. That's why we have elections. There are things that you like about individuals and things you dislike as they take stances and positions. That's just part of the process. That will be sorted out by this coming November, if not sooner.

RICHARD PIATT, KSL-5: So are you getting a sense that that sentiment, that ultra conservative tea party movement that we're seeing very visibly in Washington right now is here in Utah, or are there main stream conservatives that are unhappy with Senator Bennett, and are you yourself feeling the effects of this conservative movement in maybe some of the more extreme right calling your office, letting you know what their views are?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, I'm not feeling a lot of heat myself, personally. You know, I'm probably pretty new on the job so I don't have probably the label as much as incumbent as some, and I am a conservative, everybody knows that I'm right of center. I'm kind of a Reagan conservative personality, and I think that's where Republicanism is. I think a lot of this is born out of frustration. Republicans in essence are upset at Republicans. I think during the Bush years we're seeing some residual push back now of saying, gosh, we lost the moral high ground on fiscal responsibility. We didn't in Utah but they did in Washington in a significant way. Just in contrast, on that fiscal note, for example, Forbes Magazine just came out and said Utah, well managed, they only have $447 per person in debt. So our responsibility as Utahns, 2.8 million of us, $447. In Washington D. C., now, with $14 trillion debt, and growing, it's over $40,000 per man, woman, and child. And we're saying, gosh, I don't know if that's sustainable. And part of that was the Republicans. And so I think Republicans are upset at Republicans who didn't hold the ground on fiscal responsibility.

RICHARD PIATT, KSL-5: Well, are you feeling rumblings, though? For example, if you had not signed house Bill 67, the bill that basically fights the health care reform bill on a federal level, if you had not signed that, did you get an inkling that there would have been really upset people knocking on the Governor's office door in protest?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: You know, I didn't, but I signed the bill. So maybe if I hadn't signed the bill maybe I would have. But I didn't have any really pressure one way or the other. I think it was something that we need to do. Clearly, with this significant over reach on health care. I mean the states have got to stand up. I find it appalling that in the beginning of this debate, you know, over a year ago, that Governors and states were not invited to the table to give their two bits' worth, and say, "Hey, this is what we're doing, this is what we need, this is some of our view as far as a solution," as opposed to what's come out of Washington is the typical one size fits all approach, and for the first time in our country's history a mandate that you will, in fact, buy something.

That's got to give us all a little bit of pause, you know, a violation of maybe the interstate commercial clause, a violation of the 10th Amendment, that's why the attorney general is of course taking steps to join in a lawsuit and litigation against it. But what we did with the legislation is say, "We, as a state, are going to review the legislation, the requirements of our health department, to analyze, what are the consequences to Utah with this significant health care reform bill?" So our health department, our Department of Commerce, our office of economic development, our insurance office. Frankly with 2562 pages, it's going to take a while to review that and really analyze, can we understand it? What are the consequences? What are the unintended consequences? We found out just yesterday they're already making some minor adjustments of things that they've skipped in Washington D.C. And why should that surprise us? 2562 page bill that they basically 72 hours to read, to understand, and determine what the consequences are going to be? That's almost hard to comprehend for me.

LISA RILEY ROCHE, DESERET NEWS: Governor, last session didn't go entirely smoothly. Right before the session started the senate majority leader designed after being arrested for DUI, at the end of the session the house majority leader announced a nude hot tubbing incident in his past, later resigned a few days later. How do you think that reflects on the state? You talk about all the accolades Utah has gotten as the best managed state, and yet these are powerful Republican leaders who also are members of a church that does not tout those values, how do you think that reflects on the state, and what does your party need to do to avoid such instances in the future? Or is there anything the party can do?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, as good as we are in Utah, and again I'm very proud of our state, I think we are, in comparison, the best, and I think we've received some recognition that's well deserved. That being said, we're not perfect. We certainly have areas of improvement that we can work on, and are. And we're going to try to raise the bar every chance we get. But we also are a state of human beings that have human weaknesses that sometimes don't live up to their own standards of what they've set for their own personal conduct. I don't know of any church that touts the conduct that you're talking about, you know. Any of them in Utah, at least I don't know of one that does. So it has nothing to do with church affiliation, it has nothing to do with party affiliation. It has to do with human weaknesses and making bad decisions.

MAX ROTH, FOX-13: But doesn't it, you know, in a state where one party has so much power, and especially when you're talking about districts that are being served, where essentially the Republican nominee is going to be the representative or senator, then within the party, isn't there more responsibility to vet who is ultimately going to hold those positions?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I think so. Again, whoever you choose to be your standard bearer ought to pass muster and pass scrutiny. Whatever we as parties, you know, decide that should be. And certainly in the Republican party we would like to make sure that our best and brightest are set forward. That's why we have elections. That's why we have people proffer themselves, and we go through a vetting process we hope gives us our best leadership possible. If not that, then we might as well put everybody's name in a hat and just draw it out.

ROD DECKER, KUTV-2: There's an ethics petition abroad, and there was a bill passed, the people could take their names off, and Mr. Hansen, the head of the Republican party in Utah, says the Republican party hasn't decided yet whether if they get enough signatures the Republicans will call around and try to get people to get off the petition. Those who support the petition say that's not fair. My guess is, if you said let's not do it because it's not fair publicly, the Republican party wouldn't do it. Are you going to ask them not to do it, are you going to encourage them to do it, or are you going to keep quiet?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, nobody's talked to me about it until you, Rod. I can tell you that I think people have the right to sign petitions, they ought to have the right to take their names off of petitions. It's that simple to me. I think there's people that encourage you to sign and that get you in a grocery store parking lot and say, "Hey, you ought to sign this petition for these good and noble reasons."

There are others out there that have a different point of view and will say, "I think you ought to take it off, you've not understood what you've signed." That's part of the give and take of the marketplace, and I think that's probably healthy. So again, I'm not going to lead any charge out there. There's others out there that might want to do it but that's the freedom that comes in a free marketplace.

KEN VERDOIA, KUED: Is it healthy for the state Republican party to lead the charge out there to get signatures off the ethics petition?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: If the Republican party believes in a cause and in a principle, they would want to convince people to that end. And so absolutely. That's yet to be determined, evidently, by what you've told me. But certainly every party has the right to engage. The Democrat party could engage in the opposite point of view. So that's part of the give and take of free speech and persuasion and argument and dialogue and debate. That's what we need more of. And so I would certainly not want to stifle that in any way, shape or form.

BROCK VERGAKIS, ASSOCIATED PRESS: Governor, you're one of Senator Bob Bennett's constituents. Do you think he deserves a fourth term in the senate?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: You know, I'm staying out of the senate race. Senator Bennett's a good friend of mine, I think he's served us well, but I know the other contestants too, those that are running for office, they're all good friends, they all have strengths, they all have weaknesses, and I'll let that play out without taking a hand in that.

BROCK VERGAKIS, ASSOCIATED PRESS: Does that mean you don't know who the best and brightest is? You said the Republican party

GOVERNOR HERBERT: They're all best and brightest. They're all the best and brightest.

MAX ROTH, FOX-13: You know, Senator, to make a Tell me if this is a fair logical jump. You said that the individual mandate within the health care bill was outrageous and a violation of the 10th Amendment. Senator Bennett, the Bennett Widen plan, included an individual mandate. Does that mean he supported something that was unconstitutional, outrageous?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Absolutely. It doesn't matter if it's proposed by a Republican or a Democrat, if it's unconstitutional it's unconstitutional. This overreach by the federal government ought to cause us all the heebie jeebies, as we look at potential cost involved with this. Premiums will not go down, they're going to go up. I think some of the goals are laudable. I just would argue that it ought to be done by the states. In Utah we are a perfect example of somebody that's talking about it and doing something about it. We're walking the walk, our interchange, our exchange, the health exchange, allowing people to access, 40,000 employees, is now going to be changed because of this federal mandate. We have two employees, it costs us less than $200,000 to run a health exchange. It could cost us millions now with the mandates that come to us just on running our exchange window with a federal mandate. Not to mention the change in Medicaid, the costs could be hundreds of millions of dollars to our state budget on the Medicaid expansion. There's a lot of issues there that we don't even quite understand yet. Again, this is going to be a budget buster for the federal government which causes us all concern, and the impacts are going to be felt by the states as we have this unfunded mandate come to us, not only now, but growing by 2014.

KEN VERDOIA, KUED: Governor, we are just about out of time, one minute left. Let me take this back to its most basic consideration. Does every Utahn have a right to medical care based on medical need?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: You make it a right like it's an entitlement. I think we ought to have access, and I think there are ways to provide coverage to all Americans, and certainly all Utahns. We already do that in some form or fashion with our emergency room where you cannot be turned down. We need to find ways to, in fact, improve accessibility. I know the preconditions are a problem for the insurance company. We have directed all of our attention in this debate on insurance, making them the bad guys. That's just us getting together and sharing the risk. Where we ought to be talking about quality of health care, and we ought to be talking about keeping the cost of health care down. And there are ways to do that, that are not even being addressed in the federal health bill.

KEN VERDOIA, KUED: Governor, thank you for your time today. Join us on line, KUED.org for transcripts and past programs. Good evening.

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