August 23, 2015

“We're number one economically. We've raised the bar on education. Our infrastructure's improved. We're preparing for the future with the vision on water and needs that we have to prepare for our--the growth as the third fastest growing state in America.”

ANNOUNCER: KUED presents "The Governor's Monthly News Conference," an exchange between Utah reporters and Governor Gary Herbert. This program was recorded earlier.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Good morning. Always a pleasure to be with you, and thank you for your attendance today.

Let me start, if I could, before we take questions, by talking about the biggest issue of the day. As I understand, that's prison relocation. And, as you know, we've called a Special Session yesterday to have this discussion about should we relocate the prison, and the site identified is the Salt Lake City site, about five miles west of the airport. And just reviewing that process, which is the key issue for me is do we have a good process? And I think, overall, this has been started back in actually Governor Huntsman's tenure, ten years ago.

At least introducing the subject. Four years ago this past March, the Legislature developed a Prison Relocation Commission, and really intensified the review and search process for should we, in fact, find a new location for the prison. And I'm confident that the process has been thorough. I think it's been fair and it's been inclusive. And I think, as they've tried to search through as many as 60 different potential locations, they've done the people's work in as fair-minded way as they could have. And I think that's evidenced by the fact that the recommendation that came on the Salt Lake site was bipartisan and unanimous from the Commission.

The discussion yesterday, I think, was thorough in debating the pros and the cons, and I would certainly stipulate that there is no perfect site. And I recognize that it's an emotional issue and we don't have a lot of locations asking for the prison. We do have some, interestingly enough, but not all. And the impacts of that prison relocation and the new site certainly ought to be considered and thought about and mitigated against additional cost to the location decided.

But in going through and looking, I've gone out and taken a look at the Salt Lake City site, I do find it about 5 miles west of the airport. It is in a remote location, but yet still conveniently located to transportation and access, which will make it convenient for volunteers, for employees, for access to healthcare, the courts, the things that, really, a prison needs to have access to.

I think it will have minimal impact negatively to the city of Salt Lake City, and I think, as I look around and say, "Well, if I was going to pick a site of those that were the finalists, would I put in Draper, would I put it in Eagle Mountain, out in Tooele, would I put it out there west of the airport? And I'm persuaded that actually the west of the airport location is the best location. Not the perfect location, but the best to give us, I think, the most effective return on taxpayers' dollars and be able to build a prison for today and tomorrow that has more to do with warehousing and more to do with rehabilitation and programming and the abilities to, in fact, help reduce our recidivism rates in the state of Utah.

So to that end, I'm announcing today that I will sign that bill today. And I'm going to have that moved forward. This is not the end. This is really another beginning as we go through the process to take steps with funding, with a review of the property sites out there to make it appropriate and transition from the old site to the new site, which is going to take us a few years. So with that, again, I am going to sign the resolution and that bill to get this thing moving forward. And now I'm happy to take your questions.

LISA RILEY ROCHE, DESERET NEWS:Governor, Salt Lake City has indicated they may still pursue a lawsuit, a referendum, some kind of action to stop this move. What's your message to Salt Lake City at this point?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I understand some of the emotions involved in this. This is really a complex issue. It's not just black and white. As I mentioned, there's no perfect location. It is only finding the best location under the current circumstances of today.

And I understand their anxiety about it. I would hope that in the spirit of cooperation, we can come together with the leaders of Salt Lake City and say, "This is a remote location, which probably has no anticipated development for many years in the future. Maybe this can be a catalyst to open up for industrial development, putting utilities in there, warehouse development, other opportunities that may come in adjacent to a prison situation."

The site in Draper is surrounded by residential homes, more population. It is not conducive for a prison site today. And if we were starting from ground zero, we would not pick that site, I think, over the more remote location. It's about 3.4 miles west of the closest building out there. So, again, let's come together. I know they've got issues and questions and concerns. Let's answer those questions and concerns. Let's address them and see if we can, in the spirit of cooperation and collaboration, come up with the proverbial win-win.

LISA RILEY ROCHE, DESERET NEWS:You're talking about a spirit of cooperation though but, last night, a state senator mentioned that having the prison site annexed by Magna is an option if Salt Lake City pursues action to stop this. Is that something you'd like to see?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: No, not necessarily. I think all options are on the table as we look to find the win-win. What's in the best interest of all the people of Utah, which is the perspective I've got to look at. So, you know, I think if there's issues out there that cannot be resolved, I guess that's another option. But I'm confident that we can work with Salt Lake City and their leadership, the mayor, and the council and business leaders and find something, people say, "You know what? That's the optimal good for our city and for the state," as we address this issue in its complexity.

But certainly, it's a significantly important issue. We started down the road of reform with our judicial system. We have about 50% of the people going to prison today come back, once they're released, in the next 3 years. That's a rate that's way too high. And we have the ability to change that by having better programming, better counseling, better education. All that can be delivered in a new prison alignment, with new architecture, new layout. And so I think the important aspect of this is not just economics, which has been talked about a lot, but the ability for us to get past just warehousing prisoners, and rehabilitating prisoners.

Brian Grimmett, KUER 90.1: You talk about rehabilitating prisoners. One of the things that many Democrats brought up about this was rehabilitating in connection with Medicaid Expansion. Do you agree with their connection, that getting some of those more Medicaid dollars is important for this population?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: That's why I proposed the Healthy Utah program because I do believe that there is a need for us to help those who are vulnerable in our society; that, because of lower incomes, don't have access to quality healthcare. And certainly that includes those who are in our prison system and our county jails et cetera. So it's not just a state system issue, it's a county system issue also.

And so, again, I think the good news on the horizon is that as we've been able to work together with House leadership and Senate leadership, and I'm expecting another Special Session to come here this year, where we, in fact, resolve our differences and come together on an alternative to Medicaid Expansion, an alternative really to the Healthy Utah, and I believe this proposal we have that we're coming together on will be better, actually better than Medicaid Expansion in helping those who need help. So it's not either/or. I think both of them are important.

BRIAN MULLAHY, KUTV-2: Governor, is the sticky point in Medicaid Expansion having doctors pay for Utah's share? And if that's not the sticking point, what is?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, it's certainly one of those issues of concern and that is the fact that we have beneficiaries that receive our tax dollars as they were sent to Washington and then come back. And so those who benefit from that largesse that comes back, of our tax dollars, the thinking is they ought to pay a little bit back into the system to help us with the match.

So do they assume some of the risk responsibilities on this issue of a federal Washington bureaucracy that there is some least concern will they continue to fulfill their obligations. So it's hospitals, it's drug providers, pharma. It is doctors. It's all those involved. There's about 14 to 18 different stakeholders, providers, out there and the intent would be if you receive a dollar back and it's going to help you offset your costs and improve your bottom line, then 7 cents of that really ought to be forwarded back to the state to help us with our match aspects of--to trigger the money.

And, you know, if you get, you know, 93 cents for every 7 cents you spend, that's pretty good return and that's really what we're trying to--we're trying to find something that's fair, that's proportional, that's balanced, that's optimal, that takes the risk away from the taxpayers and from state government. And I think it's really a wise approach and I think we're going to get to that optimal point.

BRIAN MULLAHY, KUTV-2: And are some of those stakeholders, however, saying, "No"?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I have not heard anybody say, "No." I think everybody's concerned that "I'm going to be the only one paying and the rest of them will get off scot-free." And so that's not the intent. The intent really is to spread this responsibility to all the beneficiaries and, like I mentioned, there's at least 14, maybe as many as 18, different entities that we can identify that will receive some of this money back. So if you receive a dollar, the intent would be for you to give 7 cents of it back to the state to help us defray our costs for our 10% max that will come up in about 2021.

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: If I could follow up on that, from what I've heard and, again, this is prob--I've not been in these meetings. Neither has anybody here.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I haven't seen you there so, I mean, I--

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: No, no, my invitation got lost. But the doctors are okay with it. The hospitals are okay with it. The pharmacists are okay with it, from what I understand. It's the drug companies that are sort of balking at changes to the Preferred Drug List, as I understand. Is that the case? And how do you get the pharma--

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, I think everybody--every entity is concerned that we're going to have to pay more than our fair share. And so it's not just 1 versus the other 13, it's all of them. And we're trying to find the mathematics of it to make sure that everybody pays proportional to what they receive in their benefit. That it is, in fact, fair. And how you define fair sometimes is a little bit subjective. But that's what we're wrestling with right now, and I expect that over the next couple of weeks, we can find that. And then, I think that'll be the final part of the puzzle. I think everything else we've got in concept. So I'm hopeful that over the next 2 or 3 weeks, that we're going to be able to resolve that with some review of the numbers and find a place we can all say, "This is the optimal point."

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: One of the issues that was discussed in--at great length before was a cap, some sort of certainty on how much is going to be spent. Now if you have these outside--these other entities that are going to benefit, paying for this, how do you cap that? And what happens if the doctors say, "Oh, wow, we didn't expect it to be this much," you know, and, "we want out"?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, the intent would be for them--it's always will be proportional. If you receive a dollar, you'll pay back 7 cents. Or receive back, you know, $10, you'll pay back 70 cents. So there--it's always will be proportional. You won't have to pay anything back unless you receive something. And so, again, that would be kind of the concept. It's not going to work exactly straight across the board. There'll be some that receive probably more benefit than others and that's just probably the best we can do. Part of the challenge is we have to do it under the existing law. We're trying to get some waivers on a few things to make it more fair and more proportional, but we have to do it ultimately under the law. And so that hamstrings us a little bit.

BEN WINSLOW, FOX-13: Governor how goes your review of the DABC? Certainly, a lot has been made of morale issues and other problems within the Liquor Control Authority.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, as you recall, we've taken the concerns and the complaints seriously. And those that come into our Constituent Services Office, we log and we review and we follow up on. We've turned the responsibility over to our Office of Management and Budget to review the financial aspects of this. We've also, in partnership with our Human Resources Department, on salaries and management skills and those kinds of things to make sure that we have a kind of a review and make sure that we know what's going on and where we're at today and where improvements need to be made.

The first 30-day review of that will come up right now. In fact, it's probably close because we will have a report on that sometime next week, our first 30-day review. We have a 30, 60, and a 90-day review that we're--process we're going through. So our first report will come out sometime next week from our Office of Management and Budget with recommendations as far as what they found and what we should be doing about it.

BEN WINSLOW, FOX-13: Have you been updated? Are you satisfied with what you're finding out?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I'm satisfied with the process. I don't know what the outcome of that review's going to be. I'll wait for that to be presented to me. It has not, as of yet. It will be next week and we will act on that. The process we're doing, I think, is very good and is going to be very thorough. And it will give us enlightenment about the--is there widespread challenge out there, a need for improvement, or is it just an isolated case in a few stores? I'm looking forward to the report.

BEN WINSLOW, FOX-13: Any changes in liquor laws that you see need to be addressed in the coming session?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: You know, I think overall, maybe we have some issues with management of our liquor stores and all but we produce about $130, $140 million of money that goes into our government coffers, some of it for education, some of it for general funding. So it's a significant profit center for us which helps us defray the cost to the taxpayers. And so I think the systems works pretty well. I expect that there will be proposals from other legislators as they seems to always do--somebody wants to fine-tune it or tweak it here or there, that will be presented to the Legislature in 2016. We'll analyze them and review them and weigh in as we feel is appropriate.

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: If I could ask you briefly about Planned Parenthood. We spoke last week and you said that you were interested in--that you were--wanted to make sure the money that was going to Planned Parenthood goes to other providers. Have you looked at, legally, whether you can actually--because there are contracts in place and an RFP process in place that Planned Parenthood won legally, can you cut off the money to Planned Parenthood and divert that to other providers?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Yes, we can. But clearly, we'll do things under the law and do it appropriately under the law. But we have contracts that we have that require 30-day notice. We have contracts will come up for renewal which we won't renew. Let me emphasize, we really do care about women's health, and so the idea that somehow women's health will be short-changed in this process is not accurate.

We have 26 different health agencies in the state and at 49 different locations. And so the monies that have been given previously, and it's just--it's a small amount of money, it's less than 5% probably to Planned Parenthood, will be redirected to these other agencies. And so those services that are being provided by Planned Parenthood will still be provided to the marketplace. We're going to put all that money back in the marketplace so that these issues for women's health will continue to be provided. We're just not going to do it through Planned Parenthood right now.

BRIAN MULLAHY, KUTV-2: What did you find most disturbing in the videos that have been released?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Probably the casualness, the callousness, of selling, discussing, fetal body parts as a commodity to be sold. I think, again, the hope is that it's not happening in Utah and hopefully not in many places around the country. But it's ignited outrage and it's very disconcerting to think that that's what's happening out there. Is that what we've evolved to since 1973 with Roe v. Wade?

It is probably time for us to push the reset button and rethink what we're doing there when it comes to the life of the unborn child. And for those who've got children, for parents, for mothers, again, some of that imagery is very disturbing. And so, it's disturbing enough to me to say, you know, "We don't want to be supporting that." It's emotional for people and probably emotional on all sides of the issue but we ought not to be part of that.

If they want to get money from the federal government, have them deal direct with--most of the money they get, by the way, comes from the federal government. We ought not to be in this pass-through mode. So we're going to take a chance to review that and put it on hold. And I've made the decision and I think it's the right decision based on the review and the analysis that's taken place and we'll see what happens in Washington, D.C., with this debate.

BRIAN MULLAHY, KUTV-2: And Governor, to that end, when you say, "Hit the reset button," related to abortion, what do you propose?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, I think it's a federal issue right now, clearly, based on what the Supreme Courts said. I don't agree that the Supreme Court should have made the decision. I think part of the challenge we face as society today, with the unrest and this division we have on a significant social issue, as probably of my lifetime, is because the courts, on a 5-4 vote, decided it one way.

This is an example of where we would have been better served to have Congress make a decision or State Legislators. Should have been decided by the will of the people through their elected representatives. Even Ruth Bader Ginsburg on the Supreme Court has said the very same thing, and she and I probably don't see politics the same way. But she said the fact that it's been decided by the Supreme Court has left us very unsatisfied and divided as a nation.

So I think the debate will continue and maybe some minds will be changed. Some will not. But with the advances of technology, we see, you know, survival rates increasing and with smaller times of incubation in a woman's womb, that cause us pause to think, "Are we doing the right thing?"

LISA RILEY ROCHE, DESERET NEWS: Governor, if we could go back to the prison for just a moment. There are significant environmental concerns out there being raised. The wetlands issue, just the difficulty, even if there are no federal prohibitions against building out there, ultimately, just the difficulty of securing a facility on such soggy land. You've been out there. Did that give you pause? And do you have any concern that this is going to be tied up with the federal government getting permits to build out there for some time?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, you're asking me to kind of predict the future and that's a little bit difficult for me to do. But I--certainly, I'm concerned about all aspects of the cost of the prison. Everybody should be concerned about it. It is--can we afford to do it? "Should we do it" is the first question, then can we afford to do it. And that's part of the ongoing analysis we'll have here. There have been estimates given. And, you know, I think the motivation should be to improve our prison system. And the rehabilitation aspects, to go along with the punishment aspects, are real and should be at the top of the list.

But part of it, too, when it comes to paying for it, is the fact that we have kind of the intended consequence of freeing up ground in Draper, which has the potential to give us a lot of additional revenue to help defray the cost of a new prison site and the building of a new prison.

So whatever those costs are, I guess we'll determine over time, the estimates are it's higher out there in the short run, but cheaper in the long run. But again, if we're going to argue economics, I think the economics will, again, lead us to that more remote location which has very small economic upside whereas the Draper site has very significant economic upside. So I'm concerned about it but I think it can be--it'll be resolved.

LISA RILEY ROCHE, DESERET NEWS:The environmental concerns, they can be resolved?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: I don't think the environmental concerns are any more dramatic out there than they would be in a Draper site as we have a lot of population, people in around. We have wetlands out there too. We have got power lines that go right through the middle of the property there in Draper would have to be relocated and moved. So it creates its own set of issues. And so, like I say, there is no perfect site that doesn't have some hurdles to overcome and probably some red tape and some bureaucracy to work through. But all things considered, I think this is the best site.

MICHELLE PRICE, ASSOCIATED PRESS: Governor, I want to ask you about the Colorado Mines bill. We had a couple of lawmakers this week suggest that maybe the EPA may have intentionally done this. I want--do you agree with that fear? Is that something you're concerned about?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: You know, I don't see any evidence of that and I expect that that's question's been asked. I've been told at least by our Attorney General and they've said unequivocally, "No." And that won't, I guess, reduce people who think there's a conspiracy out there. But the real question should be this, you know, "How did it happen? Why was there a slow recognition of this by the EPA and acknowledgement of the problem and notifying us? And has the response from the EPA been satisfactory?" That's a much more significant and serious question that needs to be answered. I don't know that there's any conspiracy. I see no evidence of that. But I do see a reluctance to be forthright and forthcoming by the EPA in letting us know, "Hey, we've got a problem. Be prepared for it, you know, and anticipate some pollution in your waters." That's the bigger issue for me.

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: Can I talk to you. The Draper land that you mentioned that has potential economic value, how would you like to see that handled? I mean, is the state going to continue to own the land and lease it? Is it going to sell it off to the highest bidder? Is it--what's the future for that?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, I think there should be a very thorough analysis and it ought to be very slow and deliberate. Because it is probably some of the most valuable real estate we have on the Wasatch Front, and certainly along the I-15 corridor. And so there's probably more than one way to, in fact, address that. Let's take a look at the options. I think it's going to take us some time to determine what we should be doing out there. It'll be done in conjunction with the City of Draper but it should be done with what's in the best interest of the State of Utah, a larger perspective, than just the City of Draper. And, by the way, Draper has seemed to indicate that's--they understand that need. So I don't think we need to do anything in a hurry. It's going to take us a while to build a prison and get through that over the next, you know, 2 or 3 or 4 years. We'll have time to be very deliberative in what do we do with the vacated property in Draper.

ROBERT GEHRKE, SALT LAKE TRIBUNE: No land rush, then, you have to say?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: No land rush for this but, again, I, you know, I think we have great opportunity to do this where we'll optimize the return for the taxpayer, which is what should, in fact, happen.

BRIAN GRIMMETT, KUER-90.1: Lot of the talk about moving the prison focused around--not all of it, but a lot of it, focused around how bad the current prison is. But the state allowed that to happen. So how do you prevent that at the new site, that 25, 30 years from now, it's not in terrible condition?

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Well, the unique circumstances, because there's been talk for a decade about building a new prison, probably slows down the energy to, in fact, rehabilitate and reform the current site out there. It's not just a matter of physical deterioration, by the way.

When you depreciate real estate property and deferred maintenance because of not spending money, but it's also what we would call functional obsolescence. You could have a new building but it doesn't function right, and the location and the site is wrong compared to other buildings out there, the layout inside of the buildings and structures are not conducive. Built for 700 prisoners originally and now we have 4,000 out there. So it's not only just physical deterioration we've neglected, but we have a building functional obsolescence that needs to be fixed.

That means you'd have to really knock down the building and rebuild again. And I can tell you, rebuilding on Draper and I've looked into this very thoroughly, it is--has some very significant logistical problems. We don't have the acreage to do that. And the transition period is problematic. So again, I--once we get a new prison, just like we build roads, we need to set aside money for ongoing maintenance to make sure that we don't have any kind of unwanted physical deterioration.

BRIAN MULLAHY, KUTV-2: Governor, there's very little time left but your thoughts on an intra-party challenge.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: You know, intra-party challenges happen all the time. I'm not immune to that. And I'm prepared to defend what I think is a remarkably good record. The collaboration we've had in this state over the last 6 years that I've been Governor has been remarkable, you know. It's--we're number one economically. We've raised the bar on education. Our infrastructure's improved. We're preparing for the future with the vision on water and needs that we have to prepare for our--the growth as the third fastest growing state in America. That'll be part of the ongoing debate as we have--as politics always--you have to kind of sell yourself at the next election.

ERIK NEILSEN, KUED: Governor, thank you very much for joining us today.

GOVERNOR HERBERT: Thank you.

ANNOUNCER: This has been "The Governor's Monthly News Conference." An archive of transcripts, video, and audio is available online. Please visit kued.org. Thanks for joining us.

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